Would Jesus Watch The Dark Knight?
How much worldliness is acceptable?
Avoiding the question
I really don’t want to know the conclusion of this article until I get a chance to watch the movie this week. The truth is that I absolutely love Batman, and having just watched the trailer for this new movie, I am much more than a bit intrigued.
Yet there is one problem – well, I wouldn’t call it a problem really. A friend of mine mentioned to me that he was struggling with whether or not he should go watch the movie. Though he wants to, he just can’t seem to get over something someone had said to him earlier on this year – turns out that someone was me.
I too had been grappling with whether I should go watch an epic movie, ‘300’, and as I pondered the gore and violence that I would encounter, I was challenged by a statement from a man I highly esteem. He was telling his church why he almost never goes to the movies.
“The reason is very simple: there are almost no movies that don’t ask me to be entertained by attitudes, motives, and actions which Jesus died to eradicate. My heart will not allow me to be entertained by worldliness.”
It is a profound statement that has really shown me the seriousness that every aspect of life bears when it comes to being a follower of Christ and it has challenged me to consider that ‘The Dark Knight’, may just be bigger than Batman.
There are three issues I want us to consider about entertainment in the world today, as we seek to find the answer to this nagging question;
‘If God says that in whatever I do, whether I eat or drink, I should do it all to his glory, then when I am being entertained, just “how much worldliness is acceptable?’
‘The Dark Knight’ 101
The Dark Knight is definitely the biggest movie of the year. Already it has reached record-breaking heights like:
• The highest-ever opening day and opening weekend sales,
• 2008’s top-grossing movie after just 13 days in release,
• The Batman movie with the highest gross rate ever,
• The fastest movie to reach $100 million, $150 million, $200 million, $250 million and $300 million.
The movie is apparently a real spellbinding thriller designed to have you gripped and guessing until the end. It was shot in Hong Kong and is very well crafted. But despite its success the consistent complaint of critics everywhere in the world is the exceptional violence and ominous character portrayed by Batman’s nemesis, the Joker, who does not joke at all.
I will attempt to confine my plot spoilers to the opening. The film begins with a heist carried out by men in sinister clown masks. As each clown completes a task, another shoots him point-blank in the head. The scene ends with a clown – The Joker - stuffing a bomb into a wounded bank employee’s mouth.
After the murderous clown heist, things slip downhill. A man’s face is filleted by a knife, and another’s is burned half-off. A man’s eye is slammed into a pencil. A bomb can be seen crudely stitched inside another man’s stomach, which subsequently explodes. A trussed-up man is bound to a chair and set alight atop a pile of banknotes. A plainly terrorized child is threatened at gunpoint by a man with a melted face. It is all intensely realistic. Oh but…there isn’t any nudity.
Reddit
August 3rd, 2008 at 5:36 pm
I know I will take a lot of flack for this but…
A lot of the movies we watch today Jesus Christ would despise them, one which being The Dark Knight.
August 4th, 2008 at 12:55 am
Look at this video ppl…. bwoy hollywood…
They’re saying the movie is this big that Jesus returned to see it.
Found it here http://weblog.revelife.com/revelife/667342243/even-jesus-loves-the-dark-knight-wait-was-that-offensive.html
August 4th, 2008 at 1:30 am
I applaud the intent of this article.I only watch movies,Music,etc with Christian actors/band members.In,fact,the only reason I watched The Dark Knight was someone lied that Christian Bale was a Christian to get me to see it.But one point I feel this article missed was Good vs Evil.Evil was at least represented as being so,while the hero was not immoral.It also showed the lure of temptation,one hero gave in to sin while another stood his ground.Grace can not fully be appreciated without knowing how bad off you were(or could be)without it.Just look at Jesus’ parable about the Pharisee and The Tax Collector.The Pharisee thoght he was all that for following God’s commands,while the Tax Collector was full of sorrow for the sins he committed.Jesus said it was the tax collector,not the Pharisee,who was right with God.My point is,sometimes a little shock value can shake us from complacency and into positive action.
August 4th, 2008 at 8:04 am
Well I’m a heathen so I don’t have a problem with such films. I personally think that it’s an important film to watch for any individual who’s interested in the human condition. I’d suppose Jesus was interested in the human condition too. And I also think the question we should be asking ourselves is “What would you do?”. Are we now just doing things because someone else told us so or are we doing things because as a human being your soul/spirit guides you into positive action?
I also recommend the film “Lars and the Real Girl”. It has an interesting point of view on the WWJD question. and regarding the batman film I recommend the following article.
http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB121694247343482821-lMyQjAxMDI4MTI2NTkyNDUyWj.html
August 4th, 2008 at 9:17 am
Do you think that God welcomed the blockbuster star and said:
“I just loved you role ‘The Dark knight’, all the murdering, lying, cursing, and grotesque violence! Oh Heath you knew exactly how to glorify me with your talents!! Come on in, the Angels can’t stop watching it…lets go join them!”
I highly doubt it!
yeah - i imagine god would say the same thing to moses or elijah - man i just love when you threw those fireballs down from heaven and killed hundreds of soldiers. or when you ransacked that village and killed all the innocent children because they simply didnt believe in the god of israel…
oh moses and elijah, you know exactly how to glorify me with your talents -
… are all christians this stupid?
August 4th, 2008 at 9:25 am
First, to T-Ann, welcome to the forum. I’m glad to see a heathen (I wouldn’t call someone that, but if you’re cool with the title, fine!) involved on this site. This is an interesting topic.
I try not to be too pious, but it also isn’t safe to be borderlining. (so to speak) I saw the movie and it was great. The best movie I’ve seen in years (but then again, I am a batman fan even though it was the joker’s character that stole the film) On the flip side, the movie was graphic in content and you might think “so what! I see violence everyday. But that doesn’t ok taking in these things. The eyes truly are the window to the soul. And when someone becomes addicted to porn, it’s usually based off something he/she has seen. So one should be careful of what they allow themselves to watch.
In closing, it is impossible to avoid contact with worldy things while living in this world. What you can avoid is being caught up with the cares of this world. So I guess a believer should moniter his/her intake of media as one would (or should rather) moniter their intake of food. God bless.
August 4th, 2008 at 9:33 am
I have seen the movie and there is Christian symbolism through out the movie. Though it does not directly give the Glory to Jesus it implies it.”someone innocent taking the fall for everyone” indirectly points to Our Lord and Saviour Jesus. Though not recommend for children and it still centers around darkness you could still see the Hope and The Message of A Saviour especially in a dark world. If you feel persoanlly convicted then don’t go but I don’t think this is a movie to boycott as Christians.
August 4th, 2008 at 9:44 am
I hate this movie. I mean the Dark Knight looks so gruesome. I would not watch this movie anyway.. I’m not a Batman fan, but jeez Heath Ledger looks sooo creepy. I think there is a link between this role and his death. His character is a bit too much, can u imagine the spiritual baggage. I guess that’s what caused his sleep disorders and anxiety.
On plus one of the Olsen twins- a good friend of his-is seeking therapy because he ‘haunts’ her in his character. Weird. His character freaks me out, and I think it has a horde of spirits attached to it, so u watchers may wanna b careful.
August 4th, 2008 at 9:53 am
I am so grateful that this article was written. Bless God! Just friday night a group of us - Christian young people gathered to watch some movies and lyme. A debate soon ensued about whether we should watch Veggie-tales (the cartoon movie about Jonah) or Rush Hour 3. Some pointed out that number 1 was a kiddies’ flick starring vegetables with no hands or feet while others pointed out that Rush Hour had crude jokes, curse words and explicit scenes. It was a real struggle as it all boiled down to 1. having fun or 2. obeying our Godly consciences. Sad to say - fun won. Its like the article says, we too are of the impression that adults are immune from certain influences, which is a very big misconception…
What this article really brought out for me is that we need to be constantly questioning, as people who seek to please God, the things that entertain us and bring us joy, we need to question our motives.
I personally don’t buy the argument about watching it to learn about the human condition. That’s hogwash! Want to learn about the human condition? You don’t need to eat popcorn, nachos and hot dogs in a dark theater to get that revelation. Just look all around you, read/ watch the news even (that’s more than enough insight into the human condition)…but as the writer rightly said, this is bigger than Batman…
Even more tragic is that the actor (Heath Ledger) died trying to portray this evil character and so as far as I see it, we then share in his death when we shell out big bucks to what -’go see’? I have recently come to the realization that there is a very thin line between curiosity and moral decadence…
More than a simple boycott, this is challenging us, who claim to know God, to question our motives…
Thanks for sharing Andrew.
August 4th, 2008 at 11:02 am
It is interesting to see where the priorities of God’s people lie. The movie is no more violent than several purportedly “Christian” Movies shown on TBN or Three Angels networks, for example, The Omega Code and the Omega Code 2, starring Michael York. These movies, to give a very general synopsis, depict the end of days as understood by several Christian and Non-Christian schools of thought. There are several graphic scenes in the show, a very generous showing of guns, and even an assassination of Micheal York’s character Stone Alexander; (i.e he was shot in the head). Funnily enough, he returned to life….his being the Beast and all. But I digress. The point is that it was Jesus himself who told is that before we examine the splinter in our brother’s eye, we must take the plank out of our own.
I believe the main problem with the film is the fact that so much violence, hate, and sheer chaotic nature is brought out by Heath Ledger’s performance of the Joker, which is probably one of the most powerful roles I have seen in a while. People would be uncomfortable with seeing this played out in such a graphic way, but the truth is that there are peole like this who exist. While I agree that excessive violence is something neither children nor adults should be exposed to, I still maintain that we must check ourselves and what goes on in our Christian community before we can go and evangelise and be beacons in the world. So…don’t forget Christian movies as well. Take a look at those.
August 4th, 2008 at 11:45 am
Hmmm,
This is all very interesting. Well I guess many of you have never had the opportunity to work with the jokers of the world and come face to face with the sort of violence that such movie portrays. Truth is many Christians are stuck into a very protective environment and it’s your choice if you want to be. There are children expose to so much violence in the current world we live in. Did anyone listen to the voice of the joker and asked how he became the person he was portrayed in the film?
The world is a dangerous place folks and children/adults who are exposed to real life violence need a voice as well. I always remind myself not to just look but also to listen to their voices because far beyond what the eyes can see are voices crying out for help.
August 4th, 2008 at 11:55 am
Good day,
I just want to correct a trend of thought here, before this discussion continues.
1st. The focus of this article examines the content of the movie and then makes its judgment. There is no question of who made the movie, if they are Christian or what. Please don’t read into this argument a position that I am somehow putting a blanket judgment over all non-christian movies, and giving a wholehearted approval to christian movies. No I am saying that if the content movie is as such that it depends upon “attitudes, motives, and actions which Jesus died to eradicate from the world” to entertain, then whether it is called “Christian” or not it is not a movie that I could see the Christ of the bible endorsing. I have gone to great pains to reason that for you from a biblical perspective…and not from my own platform. Now what I would love is for us to concentrate on the arguments put forward in this article and not merely state what we feel.
2nd. This article is not meant to start some sort of boycott. Personally, I’ve made my decision not to go, and this article is just me sharing with you how I have come to my stance. What I would want you to get from this is that there is a difference between those who want nominal Christianity and those who really want be impacted by God.
Remember the point about the little Children, and why it is so easy for them to see God and why God so readily calls them to himself. If you want to watch the movie…that’s your business, I am not calling it a sin. But I will definitely say ‘yo careless’ wid your mind, your heart and your faith: “Or do you suppose it is to no purpose that the Scripture says, “He yearns jealously over the spirit that he has made to dwell in us”? (James 4:5)
Love
August 4th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
Hmmm.First,I should have clarified that my decision to watch only stuff with Christians in it was not meant to say I’m judgemental towards all other movies/music&stuff and they’re all bad.It just helps me narrow the field a tad so I’m not wasting so much time debating every movie that comes along.I’m well aware some Christians(Britney Spears,Mel Gibson,Denzel Washington,etc)put out some questionable to downright crude material.It all boils down to how tender your conscience is.On this note,I’d like to point out that T-Ann is exactly right.WAYYYY too many Christians just live in glass houses and throw stones.Few consider troubled people like The Joker or how he got to be who he is.Hurt people hurt people,it is extremely rare that someone is born with that intent to kill,usually it’s due to abuse or neglect.The Church could definitely be more open-minded and accepting on a long-term basis.Good point!
August 4th, 2008 at 4:22 pm
True very true point, but how many ppl watch the movie for that purpose… and thats the whole point of this debate.
August 4th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
what would Jesus do? hmmmm
well i don’t know what he would do but being a human led by the Holy Spirit i would and i will watch it the next chance i get. We are called to be in the world but not of the world, to understand the world but not to isolate the world.
August 4th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
You guys are funny… you can get good out of anything, and bad out of anything… its just based on your attitude, and your reaction to what you see… and what you’re looking for in the first place. I can read the bible and pick out all the horrible spots that you all choose to ignore since it has an overall good-theme to the book… if you’re looking to get something horrible out of “the dark knight” or any movie, you’ll be sure to find it. - if on the other hand you’re looking to get something good out of it, just like when you open your bible, odds are you’re going to get a lot of good out of it, and anything you watch with that attitude. If you guys wanna create a bubble around yourselves, and only do as jesus would do, why do you guys waste your time writing on blogs? why dont you go do some charity work or something? is your excuse to god for avoiding good, that you avoid evil as well? if you all analyzed “the dark knight” as much as you did your precious bible, you would all praise batman like he was a god - and all the bad parts of the dark knight you would simply skip over and ignore just like you do with your bible when you read about daughters getting their father drunk and raping him, and prophets killing innocent children. And you talk as if the dark knight is gruesome… its because you focus on those parts, you’d get the same feeling if you focused on those parts of the bible.
and as for the comment about heath ledger getting back to god, and how god wouldnt be pleased at all with him…
do you know who ledger was? do you even care? or just because he portrays a wicked person you think he’s evil? lol, i would hate to be the actor who portrays iscariot in your church plays - when he gets back to god i guess he’ll have to answer for his portrayal of that horrible person too….
show some respect for gods sake… A man just died… are you any better than him?
August 4th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
I find the question of whether or not Jesus would watch Batman or not very interesting. Personally I believe he wouldn’t care either way, mainly because he wasn’t as judgemental as some of his followers made him out to be. This is based on my perception of Jesus, and just as no one can say for certain, I don’t think he’d give the film much thought. What I do find unsettling is that we accept violence everyday in the world and we sometimes condone it, and yet cite Jesus as our personal saviour.
I must add that I saw some pretty postive things in this film. Batman does not kill; he does use violence for peaceful means, but he does not glorify violence. The Joker, much like Lucifer, wants to tempt people into doing evil and wants to corrupt and scare innocent people. In the end, he tries to tempt Batman into commiting murder and fails, much like Lucifier on the Eve of Jesus’ arrest. I realize that this article was written due to the popularity of the film, but I believe there are much worse things in popular culture then this movie.
August 4th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
if this writer is critize “the dark knight” you should see the “saw” series, and another thing do not put Jesus Christ into a fictional film!!! keyword: FICTIONAL!!!!! is not real!!!!!!! sure they did put creibility to the film but is FICTIONAL you do have a point that children should not see the movie unless if they did something very bad at school and you want to punish them, then you take them to see “the dark knight” so they can have nightmares about the joker running after them, i think is much better than the result at some judge at Texas at if some boy over there is behavior is unnacceptable, so a judge is actually promoting violence to the parents by hitting them with some kind of wood, it’s almots like a baseball bat, the guy who did this article should check that out instead of mixing Jesus and “the dark knight”… oh and for the guy who said that Ledger die because of the joker that he perform… is actually dumb reason because how many actors they had to do a homocidal maniac?? what about the guy who brought to life charlie manson?? or any fictional killer in any film?? well see ya!!!
August 4th, 2008 at 6:27 pm
Yeah,I agree.The Heath Ledger@judgement comment was WAY out of line.As for the killing and raping,those daughters had just moved out of a city so immoral(as soon as 2 new guys walked in they demanded to rape them) God had to wipe it from the earth.I think it’s fair to say they were still severely influenced by that culture and not by God,which is why some Christians started this blog.They want to raise awareness of negative cultural influences(though this in NO way is even as remotely terrible as that city’s influence).As for the prophets,they were basically killing future adversaries.Like children trained thru Al’Qaida,these people were taught to hate israel and would have caused many deaths for them in the future if they had lived.The Old Testament is hard to understand,isn’t it?Gestotamoseke,I’ve gotten more out of your segments than any of the Christians here.You aren’t afraid to tell it like you see it.I admire that in a person vs people saying one thing and meaning another (or giving the “Church” answer).
August 4th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
For those who care to know…I heard on the news on the way home from work that 71 yr old Morgan Freeman (who plays the role of Lucious Fox in the Dark Knight) met in a severe accident shortly before midnight yesterday. He is now in very critical condition. There must be a reason his life was spared after patrols claimed the car freakishly started flipping over and over before finally landing and for no apparent reason. A female passenger was also in the vehicle…please bear them up in prayer…
Read more here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7541667.stm
August 4th, 2008 at 7:48 pm
yes i’ve heard and i’m bearing him a prayer.
August 5th, 2008 at 12:52 am
good article.
I have seen the movie and would have to agree that it does not reflect Philippians 4:8. It does nothing for the Glorification of Jesus but the world never does Neither did I expect anything less from Hollywood. The movie is based on the gods of this world and it is glorying the culture of death rather than life. This is the reality of the world that we live in today. The Joker states it ” He is for Chaos and Destruction.” I am not so worried about the Christians watching it as I am about the unsaved. For Christians know Jesus and walk with the Armour of God . Its the unsaved people who are blinded by the truth who make batman and comic books their idols and heroes. As Christians if you are not convicted then watch. Its easy to spot and tear down the arguments that exalt themselves above the living God. Then Speak maybe you could impart truth and convicts hearts,then maybe even dark knight which was intend for evil could be used for good.
Not Recommend for Children !!!!!!!
August 5th, 2008 at 12:57 am
not recommend for children unless they have been naugthy at school and you want to punish them!!!!! then take them to see the dark knight so they can have nighmares of the joker running after them with the laugh and everything
August 5th, 2008 at 1:09 am
Here are some thoughts from a Christian who did see the movie (twice, in fact.)
As a work of art, I loved it. From a technical standpoint, the action set pieces were constructed beautifully. Thematically, the story had some important threads, that do inform me about the human condition. It isn’t “hogwash” to suggest that a movie can teach us important things about ourselves, our world, and God. The reason everyone doesn’t get this from reading Articles or having conversations is that movies affect us viscerally.
We forget where we are in a dark theater, and we become engrossed in a story. Stories drive human experience. It’s why Jesus spoke in parables, it’s why storytelling is an important part of preaching the Word. In the modern world, movies are a highly stylized way of telling stories. That’s where the power of cinema comes from.
All that said, I agree with Andrew. Ultimately, this movie will lead more people away from God than towards Him. Batman does imitate Christ throughout the movie, and particularly at the end, performing his most heroic action. Yet, as I reflect on the Dark Night, what remains etched in my memory is the Joker. Heath Ledger, in his brilliant performance, given a charismatic, alluring character, steals the show. It’s not simply the Joker’s violence that makes him attractive. The Joker isn’t simply a crazy, murdering psychopath. He’s much worse; he’s articulate and persuasive, alluring and enticing, even as he kills.
When the character representing the Devil captures my imagination after a movie is over, I think I have allowed the Devil to win, in some way. And I have to believe the movie itself is biased toward evil (even if good “wins out” before the closing credits).
August 5th, 2008 at 9:20 am
I am looking forward to watching it, i love movies i even enjoyed the golden compass that i was warned not to see because it was an athiest movie. If a brother warns me of sexual content i wont go as that is an area i struggle with, i no longer struggle with being violent and allowing movies to effect me in that way, they used to, after watching Godfather i remember sitting and deciding whether to go all out and tek lifes to further my criminal carrer or not, thank God I decided not to and have since had a renewed mind set, so i guess i am of the opinion that according to your own faith should you watch it or not. I do not enjoy horror movies and I enjoy sexual movies too much so i watch niether.
August 5th, 2008 at 9:29 am
not particularly a Batman fan. Interestingly, however, i watched a documentary on the History channel a couple days ago, entitled ‘The Pschology of The Dark Knight’. Fascinating. It spoke of the writers’ aim, the point they wanted to get across…the mental and other issues each of the characters face and how that relates to criminals and your real-life villains.Interpretation is quite a thing and varies from person to person, and basically they made a few points which I’m sure, if the opportunity to see this movie arises, will influence my Views of it. The story starts where Batman…as a little boy falls into a cave full of bats, and he developed a phobia for bats….his parents were murdered, and he became practically obsessed with pursuing justice where he saw the law as incompetent of righting wrongs. the bat was his figure of his disguise because it symbolizes the thing he fears the most….bats….and the Joker..they call narsissitic and greedy for attention, especially when he’s done evil…they compared him to the Unabomber….in short, they intend for the movie to show reasons for deviance..whether in defence of justice, through seemingly vioet means, or for attention, greed, or just pure cold hearted evil….I don’t think though that they intend for these forms of deviance to be glorified…however I appreciate the writer of this article..it was thought provoking and has caused me to question not just ‘The Dark Knight’, not just movies in general, also the jokes I entertain, the Music I listen to, things I do, or passively condone, that don’t glorify God.
August 5th, 2008 at 10:06 am
I concede Jerin. A movie can teach us important things about ourselves if we go to the theater with that intention to learn. My point however, is why go to a movie with that intention when as you have alluded to, we can learn more about ourselves from the teachings of Jesus in the Bible and as I said before ‘by examining the world around us’? I also take your point about the powerful effect of story telling through movies, but my question still stands. The truth is that ‘most’ persons don’t go to the movies for a philosophy or history lesson, but rather to be entertained, or to blow of some steam. That is why I am so happy for this article, because I can sense that even if people do opt to see this movie, having read the article before, their consciences should have been actively engaged so that even while there, they are questioning their motives and examining their reactions to the movie as opposed to passively soaking up the values and attitudes being portrayed by the myriad characters in the film…
August 5th, 2008 at 11:10 am
dee said - My point however, is why go to a movie with that intention when as you have alluded to, we can learn more about ourselves from the teachings of Jesus in the Bible.
im just gonna say right now, im not a christian, i was until about a year ago, and i struggled with my belief in god, and jesus, and after reading the bible numerous times, i have finally decided to be atheist. And i have learned alot more studying eastern religions that have no god, more than i ever did as a christian.
If what dee just said is true… why do anything? why not just take your bible, and go live in a cabin far from society, and just read all day about how to become more like your god?
and as far as the theme to this topic - would jesus watch the dark knight - lol… here’s a better question - would jesus watch a film that portrayed verse by verse his own bible?
I highly doubt it.
August 5th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
Since God gave us His Word to read- every chapter and verse as stated in 2Time 3:16, trust me He wouldn’t mind watching this.
And why comment at this then… this clearlyis of o value to you, so maybe you should say nothing, my heart goes out for you bc the bible already has a term for guys like you.Its not too late though.. its not, if you truly want to know God, He is here for you to know, just remember at the day of judgement how terruble you’ll feel knowing the excess of resources you have just by viewing this site versus the many thousands who have to whisper his name in countries that ban christianity.
You are in my prayers, if no one else’s.
August 5th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
hello guys, i hate to be one of those on the other side of the fence. I must commend the notion that we must be wary of the things by which we are entertained because the part of us (flesh or spirit) that we feed most will untimately become the strongest. however, what is wrong with the most gruesome DEPICTION of evil in any form of literature to tell a story, the ultimate theme of which is good, per se. I need more explanation as to why the actors would be commiting a sin by playing, acting like, an antogonist in a film-(since i just played a theif and did the most unbecoming thing in robbing the church in one of our plays). This film may not be fit for children but not due the its inherent flaws, but for the childrens immaturity, fragility or somn along those lines. The only true basis for judging this film would be, were they glorifying the “evil” or just making it believable. And what was the overall morale of the story.
August 5th, 2008 at 2:17 pm
Gesto make no mistake about it…the fact that you are an atheist and are now so intrigued by this discussion is no coincidence. Rejoice, for this is the evidence that God still has His eye on you and will not give up on you.The matter of your soul is bigger than Batman or any other best selling movie…you are that important to Him. Like a good shepherd cares for his lost sheep, God still cares about you and longs to have you reconciled to Him.
You are in my prayers as well.
August 5th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
lol… i love christians man… you all think that ive stumbled upon this believe, or that im somehow lost - because only those who dont believe in christ could be lost right?
the only reason why i am commenting on this thread is because i saw it while i was looking up the dark knight stuff - and wondered what some people might say about it.
as far as god commanding us to read the bible - i guess violence and sex is okay as long as it involves god somehow huh? he only minds it if he’s not getting some attention from it?
i dont get your point Georgia..
and dee - i was a christian - im not oblivious to it - this is just a coincidence that i am here. christianity led me to atheism - its not the other way around.
Georgia said - excess of resources you have just by viewing this site versus the many thousands who have to whisper his name in countries that ban christianity.
lol, im sure the pagans had to whisper their true beliefs as well during the crusades when christians destroyed civilizations who didnt believe in christ…
the real topic here was would christ watch the dark knight?
i dont believe in him, but if he was real - i’d imagine if he didnt watch the dark knight - he would also pass on watching any film about the bible.
August 5th, 2008 at 8:19 pm
Odaine,
You bring up a great point. What is the moral of the story? What is it’s purpose? What is it’s message? These are really the most important questions when judging wether we consider a movie “evil” or “good.”
Superhero movies, by definition, promote morality, sacrifice, honor. But Hollywood’s bottom line is to entertain and profit. So most of the time, I have to sift through some garbage to get to the art.
Dee,
I choose to seek truth in movies, just like I seek truth in any form of artistic expression. Don’t get me wrong, I keep up wih what’s going on with world news. I am impressed by sound scientific studies. But there will always be a less literal, more imaginatve part of me that wants something more.
Good artists can often reveal more truth than the average scientist. Perhaps more importantly, their work reaches and affects more people, because it hits them subconsciously. It reaches the soul the same way Holy Spirit does– in unseen and subtle ways.
Once again, I go back to the Parables. Buying a pearl of great value, the tiny mustard seed, the sower, none of these images are literal. But they have a timeless, holy permanence for humanity. Just because other people (i.e. John Q Movie Going Public) don’t see the connections all around them won’t make me stop seeing Truth and glimpses of God through art.
August 6th, 2008 at 9:43 pm
I want to put forward the following:-
Luk 11:33 “No one lights a lamp and then hides it or puts it under a basket. Instead, it is put on a lampstand to give light to all who enter the room.
Luk 11:34 Your eye is a lamp for your body. A pure eye lets sunshine into your soul. But an evil eye shuts out the light and plunges you into darkness.
Luk 11:35 Make sure that the light you think you have is not really darkness.
Luk 11:36 If you are filled with light, with no dark corners, then your whole life will be radiant, as though a floodlight is shining on you.”
Then there is:-
Mar 7:14 Then Jesus called to the crowd to come and hear. “All of you listen,” he said, “and try to understand.
Mar 7:15 You are not defiled by what you eat; you are defiled by what you say and do![fn6]”
Mar 7:16
Mar 7:17 Then Jesus went into a house to get away from the crowds, and his disciples asked him what he meant by the statement he had made.
Mar 7:18 “Don’t you understand either?” he asked. “Can’t you see that what you eat won’t defile you?
Mar 7:19 Food doesn’t come in contact with your heart, but only passes through the stomach and then comes out again.” (By saying this, he showed that every kind of food is acceptable.)
Mar 7:20 And then he added, “It is the thought-life that defiles you.
Mar 7:21 For from within, out of a person’s heart, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder,
Mar 7:22 adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, eagerness for lustful pleasure, envy, slander, pride, and foolishness.
Mar 7:23 All these vile things come from within; they are what defile you and make you unacceptable to God.”
Unacceptability/Acceptability Ratings
Light (e.g. if light is dimed out shadows will appear) what contributes to more or less light? What do you see?
(PGlght)
God considers the heart as the point of defilement, a.k.a thought life (PGh)
August 6th, 2008 at 11:17 pm
I am a batman fan. I go way back when all i could remember is robin shouting at batman when something went wrong..holy smoke batman!!! This article was hard to swallow for me, a huge pill that refused to go down. But I see things clearer now and I appreciate that (Iron sharpeneth Iron).
The batman movies I grew up on was never this violent, I guess as the end draws nearer, everything around us in this life becomes worst.
We should be preparing our spirits for Heavenly behaviour (thats where we’ll be living 4ever right)….if we 4 God then be all 4 God….i see it no other way!!!!
August 7th, 2008 at 12:13 am
Wow, I’ve never read anything so weird in my life
August 7th, 2008 at 6:23 am
We live in a corrupted world these days.
When I saw this movie, my whole impression was: “This is the FICTION more closer to reality”. But it´s not about violence, gore, adult content. It´s all about the concept. The Joker persona reveals the truest evil a person can achieve in his lifetime: WHEN YOU CANT BE CONVINCED, BOUGHT, FORCED OR BLACKMAILED TO DO ANYTHING, YOU JUST WANT THE WORLD TO BURN. He´s the BAD GUY of the movie, the one you´re supposed to root against.
So, to answer your question: I think Jesus already saw it. If you watch closely The Two Boats scene, you´ll see the difference between old and new testament. Jesus came to save us, even when we´re rotted down to the core by sin.
Jesus didn´t hate anyhthing of the world…. He loved the World…. he died believing in the world…. he fought for it… Ain´t these the qualities that we look in batman?
P.S.: Please, people, cut Heath Ledger some slack. I know you can be pissed at some of his portrayals (Brokeback mountain, The Order, Ned Kelly), but you can only pray for his talented soul, and actor so young yet so gifted.
August 7th, 2008 at 10:14 am
As a fellow freethinker to Gestotamoseke i must say i was particularly interested in this article. I wouldn’t call myself an atheist because people should classify others by what they don’t believe in because we’re all atheists in some right. Because with all the movie bashing i remembered passion of the Christ to be one of the most gore filled blood drenched movies that have ever graced theaters. But I agree that there is only so much to take before it becomes gratuitous. But in all things one must exercise balance. And i recall quite well that the masses of Christians flocked out to support it with babe and toddler in hand to witness this sadism. As far as i saw no one was making any noise about it. In fact it seems to have become a staple in the Easter season to replay this gore. So Christians do seem to have there own difficulties getting over the idea bloodshed. I must commend the writer on presenting the moral depravity of some aspects of the movie and most concertedly points to how much exposure to our own actions is too much.
But i have a problem with how we seem to be cherry picking and not really looking to route of why we flock to these things in droves. The thing is that we see extremities of ourselves in all these characters as they chronicle the meaning of what it is to exist in imperfect circumstances. Where we can simply exist in an impervious bubble read our bibles and smile as the world goes up in smoke the fact is that we can never divorce ourselves from the actions and influences of others, especially if they want to cause anarchy. The question is how do you avoid this “anarchy”. Joker made it clear that u create this through fear. Which by all means is one of the main strategies employed by most if not all deity-centered religions to gain prominence and converts. The ultimate calling card (no pun intended) being the day of “judgment” to put fear in the hearts of the worldly. There are so many parallels with our own societies in this movie it should sound the alarm that we shouldn’t run from decadence we should confront it as a species and understand where it came from in a effort to prevent such monsters from being created. Most are made that way not born as such. Both the bat and the joker’s worldviews came out of very tragic circumstances formed at very impressionable times in their lives.
I think this aversion to running from the problem is what makes this kind obsession with worldliness flourish. If Good people run and hide who’ll be left to be examples to the young ones in that formative time of their lives?
All I’m trying to say is that if we keep our heads in the sand and pretend to be disgusted with all these facets of what is only human desire. If people grew up without a moral compass to guide them is it any wonder we’re facing what we’re facing?
By this movies end i was left to question all forms of order and began pondering if all this order is really to every one’s benefit and unfortunately no its not. Joker’s social experiments are only as chilling because of the fact that we could be the ones holding the key to our own disaster or salvation. The question is what would we do in such circumstances?
August 7th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
Rmak, you made an excellent point in regards to the violence in the “Passion of the Christ” I even believe the scourging scene in “Passion” was more violent than any part of the “Dark Knight” (I still can’t watch that scene where the cat-o-nine whip got stuck in Jesus’ side and then his flesh was ripped out. And I own the movie!) But the difference is Jesus’ passion was real, and the Dark Knight is a mere work of art. (a good movie that I saw twice) The bible tells us that Jesus was beaten beyond human recognition, so it was actually worse than what was portrayed in the movie. I believe that scene was included in the movie so that patrons would be able to appreciate was Jesus voluntarily endured for us.
And in regards to “putting fear into people by talking about hell” there is a huge difference between trying to scare and trying to warn someone. As a christian, I used to weary myself trying to tell ppl about Jesus and feel bad when they reject Him or what I have to say about Him, but the bible clearly tells us that not everyone is gonna accept the message or make it into heaven (even some “christians”) So for some ppl, the Gospel message is gonna be that “you were warned, but you didn’t take heed” response when someone discloses to God how unfair it is for them to go to hell.
August 7th, 2008 at 3:50 pm
Jesus loved the world and yes He fought for it, but lets not be mistaken…He was never of it! If i wasnt clear in my first comment, I’ll be clear now…no…i dont think Jesus would watch the dark knight. Its hard for us to come to grips of reality when faced with the facts.
Can someone tell me how does the dark knight edify, encourage or empower you to live in righteousness? If someone can, I’ll be willing to listen. I’ve always been a batman fan, until i got more spiritually mature. And its not that I dislike the superhero but I’ve found the real thing (Jesus Christ), and more importantly i am now cautious about what it is that i allow to enter this temple entrusted to me by God.
I guess it all boils down to your relationship with God, I believe Christ wouldn’t see this movie simply because I’ve been convicted not to see it. What is your relationship with Christ? Where’s your desire at to please Him in everything you do? Ultimately, God’s aim is to have us know that we ought to be for Him 100% in every aspect of your life (1 Corinthians 10:31). Is the dark knight 100% for God?
August 7th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
Due to the Length of this comment –> This response can be viewed here Response to:Would Jesus Watch The Dark Knight?
August 8th, 2008 at 8:03 am
litigation -
We live in a corrupted world these days -
lol - its exactly that attitude thats wrong with the world. would you rather have lived during the crusades? or during jesus’ time?
or maybe during moses time… first as a slave… then told to kill people simply because they didnt believe in the god of israel… (and therefore, were very wicked)
lol - and our world is corrupt.??.. the world has always been corrupt, its no different now than from before…
to quote bob dylans song - “the times are changin”
-please get out of the new one (world) if ya cant lend your hand, oh the times they are a changin’.
You all talk like you hate evil - why dont you embrace it, and try to understand what makes them evil, and how they ended up being evil… you all say that christ is your hero, along with prophets and apostles… but if you ever looked closely evil has its hero’s too - and guess what? they embody the same virtues as your (good) hero’s….
-they sacrifice for what they want.
- they’re stubborn in their beliefs.
- they believe their actions are inspired, that they are for a higher purpose.
ya know what buddhists think are evil?
extremists… they believe that if youre extreme to one belief or another you’ll only accomplish the exact opposite of what you’re trying to accomplish.
Such as beating a dog to discipline it - the dog will only get meaner, and more uncontrolable when you beat it - you only accomplish the exact opposite of your extreme beliefs.
You really dont know how close good and evil really are do you?
if god came to you and told you to kill your neighbor (or your son in abrahams story) you would do it with a clear conscience, knowing that you did what god asked of you.
If satan asks one of his followers to kill - all you (good) people will scream “he’s A KILLER!” and you proclaim that he was evil because of his actions
- yet the one who did it in gods name you’ll all praise for his obedience….
have you ever really thought about those who you proclaim as “evil”?
August 8th, 2008 at 9:58 am
gestotamoseke…. I agree with you….
in fact…. if your read my post throughly you´ll realize I´m not with this “Jesus watching the Dark Knight”, cuz I believe that is actually a stupid question….
I believe in God, I believe in Jesus, and I believe in mary (I´m catholic, so…), but I also believe in mankind. I believe in the possibility of a better hope… All you people talking about world destruction can´t remember we´ve been talking about the apocalypse since the dawn of time…
START THINKING LIKE AN OBJECTIVE PERSON…. Stop posting this kind of Articles that would end up confusing people whether going to the bathroom is a sin or not… stick to basics: DO THE RIGHT THINGS TO YOURSELF AND THE PERSON NEXT TO YOU… STOP THINKING ABOUT SALVATION, REDEMPTION, OR DAMNATION…. Do your part in the world and let God take care of that decision…. ´Cause is His, by the way.
Batman was a 5 star movie. Period.
Try no to set standards for Jesus, cause that IS a true sin.
August 8th, 2008 at 10:15 am
michael wildes said -
The more we take in is the more it seeps into our subconscious minds and affect us. The next thing we begin to act in such a way.
what a joke -
ive seen sooo many rated r movies, and gore and violence movies. ive played all the grand theft auto’s, driving cars and running over people walking across the road, then stopped the car in front of the local police station, pulled out a bazooka, and started killing every cop, and car that was within eye sight… laughing while i did it….
i cannot STAND real violence however - whenever i see real people fighting verbally or physically, theres something inside me that just feels enraged (not enraged like i want to join, or start another fight… enraged that they are fighting, that they cant work out their differences better, enraged like i want to force them to stop fighting)…
desensitized…. lol,… thats a made up word so psychologists can wear a suite and a tie and have a job.
if people want to re-enact any type of violence - its in the nature of the person… they wanted to do that long before they saw the material… they have an inate desire for violence.
either that, or me and all my friends and family are the one exception to that rule… but i highly doubt that.
August 8th, 2008 at 11:45 am
Things of the spirit will never be understood by the flesh….this article doesnt confuse ppl….ppl jus try to logic God. His words remain the same, yesterday, today and forever. His ways and thoughts are higher than ours, what we should do is stop trying to convenience the word of God to fit our lives….and allow God to have full control.
August 8th, 2008 at 12:36 pm
lol - do you actually know god lypher? is that why you’re saying this? cause if you have seen and talked with him, i would love to listen to who god really is… but if you’re just saying that because you were introduced to a book at a young age, and had fond feelings for an all powerful being who loved you… what makes you different from the hindu… who have their book about their great gods? who are all powerful and love them?
Lypher said -
people just try to logic god…
i have yet to meet a person that doesnt interpret the bible or (gods word) differently, or relate it to themselves in a different way than everyone else…. what makes you think that you’re right? or that you interpreted his word the exact way he wanted it to be? lol - sorry if i cant trust your opinion about god when your information comes from a book thats been translated sooo many times that the words have lost all meaning.
August 8th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
“Things of the spirit will never be understood by the flesh”
Thats another way for saying that we’re mindless machines who know no other way to morality but through a magical book. We’re trying to apply a 4th century understanding of the world that was shrouded in what we can now look back at what were less enlightened times (at least for the Caucasians if u read ur history) and trying to force it to work in the age of information and reason.
Just accept that the only justification there is religion is faith. We’re still taking as Gospel the religion of the men who thought the world was flat. If we be honest for a second and look through history there are hundreds and thousands of other books that provide as much profundity and spiritual revelations as other the books that we currently hold as infallible. But thats the beauty of being human we live we grow. But all depends on our own personal definition of god void of colonial interference.
August 8th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
You guys seem hurt by my last comment…if you were, I didnt intend for it to be so. But even God is an offense to some men. What can i say….yes! I know God and no it aint based on emotions bro….its faith! I BELIEVE!!!! Its not about what He does for me or how He makes me feel, but who I know Him to be….The King who now Reigns 4eva! Things of the spirit will never be understood by the flesh, thats the word of God and am sticking to it. We can all talk about colonial blah blah, personal definition of God blah blah, book translated so many times blah blah….I aint perfect but 4given thru and by Him. I know who God is and am happy….I pray u will too..one love
August 8th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
Oh yeah…Jesus still wouldnt watch the Dark Knight….
August 9th, 2008 at 3:17 am
Of all the responses I’ve made, I haven’t made one that attempts to respond to the topic of this forum. If I should answer that question based of what I’ve learnt about Jesus’ character in the bible, and what God has revealed to me about Himself, chances are, Jesus would not watch the Dark Knight. Why? Mainly because there is nothing there to feed His spirit. And Him coming from the Father’s side and from another world, knew the importance (more than anyone else who has ever lived) of feeding the spiritual man.
However, there are a couple of other things that Jesus wouldn’t watch that some christians here screaming at each other do watch. Namely, The Family Guy, Anything on MTV, most programs on BET, CSI, Law and Order, I love New York, Flavor of love, the Chapelle show, ANY Soap Opera, American Idol, most reality TV shows and some of the programs on TBN (yes I said it!) And this is all based on the fact that these programs at best; do nothing to feed His spirit. And at worst, would sow seeds of corruption into His spirit.
Most christians watch at least one of the above mentioned programs. You may have an interest in one, but none whatsoever in the others. Even the movies or programs that seem harmless probably wouldn’t account for Jesus’ afternoons. He’d be too busy soul hunting or healing the sick, teaching or restoring joy in the lives of people around Him.
So in closing, Jesus probably wouldn’t go out to see the Dark Knight because He’s too busy doing what He was sent here to do (He came to earth on a mission) so hopefully the time we spend not watching the Dark Knight is not spent doing or watching something else that Jesus wouldn’t. God bless you all.
Ordi.
August 9th, 2008 at 8:52 am
I agree with you Ordi 100%…thats why this article was a hard pill to swallow….I know I love Family Guy, you know I do too…Its time for me to reshape my mind so that God gets glory in everything (Real Kingdom Living). Thanks Ordi…I couldnt have said it any better…..
August 9th, 2008 at 10:14 am
I agree with the initial statement of the original post that there is no distinction between “the silver screen and human reality.”
That being said, we have to be in the world but not of the world. If there is not mark of distinction between cinema and real life then I should not expect to be any less “in the world” when I’m in the theater. I still don’t have to be of the world.
Nevermind the prevailing positive undercurrent of the film (social and ethical responsiblity in the face of panic and fear), the movie is well-made. But to the original question WWJW
Would our LORD see it? Where did HE eat? What do you think the conversations would have been like among harlots and publicans? Do you know any non-believers close to you who saw the film? What do you possibly have to say to them about it if you haven’t seen it?
I personally think that Jesus would gather a small crowd of saints and a much larger crowd or sinners, all have dinner, a little wine (read the text, its there), go see the film, and then afterwards all sit around and talk. And no matter what was said about the film, HE is never really talking about anything but the KINGDOM.
That’s maybe our biggets error 2000 plus years later. With all our do’s and don’t’s with which we struggle, we forget that we can’t esacape our presence in the world, and if we can maintain ourselves in the influx of worldiness we are by proximity bombarded with, we offer the only hope to those lost souls swimming in a sea of sin all around us. And for us,every situation- good, bad, or indifferent- is always all about the KINGDOM.
Perhaps satan prefers a blind eye much more the watchful vigilence 1 Pet 5:8
August 9th, 2008 at 11:53 am
if christ wouldnt watch the dark knight
he would never read any book that had rape, war, incest, violence… (in other words) the bible - so if you’re all trying to be christ-like… ya might wanna start by banning the bible.
August 9th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
Excellent point Gestotamoseke. However, according to what I said, Jesus probably wouldn’t waste His time absorbing something that wouldn’t adding to His spiritual growth. The bible, my friend, wouldn’t fall into the above mentioned category.
To BWayne. I kinda agree and I don’t. I don’t wan’t you to get me wrong. I saw the Dark Knight twice! I was even telling my girl how much I wanna see the movie again everytime I see the trailer. So please know that this is not one of the “Holier than thou” christians. It’s a pretty good movie, actually the best I’ve seen since “Passion of the Christ”
I understand what you’re saying in regards to being aware of what is going on around you. I remember seeing “The da vinci code” to make sure that I’d be able to defend the truth when I’m at work (even though most christians considered that “supporting” the movie) But if christians didn’t watch the da vinci code, then we wouldn’t have been able to publish the book titled “The truth behind the da vinci code” so I do understand the importance of being aware of what happens around us. However, I don’t believe Jesus would entertain every conversation just to preach the Kingdom. If the light in you and I moves our unsaved friends and co-workers to avoid using filthy language around us, just imagine the light that was bursting out of God in the flesh! I don’t believe ppl would approach Him with any silly or slack stories. After all, they called Him rabbi (great teacher) Can you imagine talking to your pastor about certain things or taking your pastor to the movie theatre? I can’t! The average movie these days shows ppl as young as High school kids making out or getting involved in pre-marital sex. I don’t believe Jesus would have to sit through such “entertainment” to talk about the Kingdom. Jesus WAS the entertainment! Don’t you see in the bible that His words were so captivating that people would sit for days just to listen to Him to the point where He had to feed them before sending them home for fear of them passing out on their way home?
I believe that when Jesus was in the presence of unsaved folks, He was in charge of the conversations. He never compromised by telling a rude joke just because it would have been funny or exaggerated a story to impress others so again I don’t think He would’ve watched this movie.
Again, you should take note of the fact that I am not one of the sanctimonious or pious saints out there. Being a batman fan for as long as I can remember, I loved this movie, saw it twice and probably will own it on dvd when it becomes available. However, in all sincerity and honesty, I believe that Jesus probably wouldn’t have watched it.
August 9th, 2008 at 6:56 pm
This is just an update that the new Op-Ed article for this week has been published. It’s entitled ‘Yes, No, or Wait?’ and it deals with making decisions and determining when God has given us one of those answers.
For those who are new, or have come on the site specifically for this discussion, Welcome! Our Op-Ed Column is updated weekly, every Saturday and are Articles from people just like you, you have burning issues that they want to share. We are not biased towards any area, all we ask is that your article is well written, researched, presented and is fair. You can email Articles to us at [fiwivoice[at]gmail[dot]com].
With respect to this article, we have definitely seen God using this site to minister to people and we are grateful for that opportunity. There are a number of misconceptions mentioned in comments made from persons and we implore you to ask God (yes, the REAL God) to open your eyes to the truth. We will clear up more of these issues going forward.
August 9th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
lol, if the dark knight wouldnt add to gods spiritual growth, (which by the way, i didnt think your god needed spiritual growth… isnt he perfect?) than he must be blind - there’s tons of philosophy in that movie, and ethics you could apply to yourself such as - is there ever a time where it is good to kill?
i wonder if god was “spiritually uplifted” when he commanded moses to kill innocent children because they were being taught a different god…. the dark knights just a movie… your god actually did that… which is worse?
August 10th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
Mr. Amen,
Thanks for the reply. I didn’t mean to suggest that Jesus would, for entertainment sake, find himself in the theater. I agree with the things you said and would only add the Jesus always spoke of Heavenly things but hardly ever used Heavenly language. He used things people naturally understood - seeds, wineskins and important social Events and occurrences - paying taxes, getting married, etc. Thats all I mean by I think HE would watch it. Not to be entertained (let’s face it, HE’s already seen it) but because it such a popular and impactful social occurrence. Thanks again for your rationed and polite response. (I’ve seen it twice as well)
To gestotamoseke: what’s your take on GOD? Not little ‘g.’ I don’t want to resond and misrepresent your point, but i am curious to know.
August 10th, 2008 at 3:09 pm
To my esteemed columnist Gestotamoseke, you have put forward a good question. One that is worthy of a response. But let me first say that when one reads the bible and finds something they do understand, they should find someone who can explain it to them, instead of walking away or dismissing the bible as a book of bad morals.
Whenever God commanded nations to be destroyed, it was because of the long histories of grevious sins. ie Most nations religions required child sacrifice to false gods. Their consciences should have told them that what they were doing was wrong, but they chose to continue in their barbaric way of life. It is also important to note that God, being a God of mercy, forgives and changes His mind in regards to the destruction of a nation if it repents. ie Ninevah. They accepted Jonah’s warning and repented even though Jonah was mad at God for allowing them to live.
It’s also very convenient of you to mention the children being killed and not their evil parents (who probably would have gotten around to sacrificing them anyway) who caused the wrath of God to be revealed. But let’s say you were correct my friend. Let’s us look at some of the times when the children of God didn’t fully obey God by sparing some of the nations and see what was the consequent result. Psalm 106:34-40 tells us that the children of Israel adopted the practice of child sacrifice to false gods from the very people that they were supposed to kill. Some of them inter-married and that caused great problems (ever tried to date an extremist from another religion?) In fact, that was the reason behind Solomon’s downfall, the principles he adopted from the strange women he married. In another instance, Haman, a descendant of King Agag, an amalekite that King Saul had failed to kill per God’s instructions was one of the earliest conspirators against the existence of the entire Jewish nation. He even got the King of Persia’s permission and the money to hire soldiers to carry out the work. However, Esther’s obedience to caling the nation to a fast produced a great miracle.
See my friend, there are times that killing can be justified ie. self defense. And God in His omniscience knows why He gives certain commandments. We may not understand because as Lypher quoted, “His ways and thoughts are higher than ours” but if He commands it, there’s always a very good reason behind it.
In closing, the bible serves as a history lesson, a map, a guide if you will. For us to learn from the mistakes of others. Spraying cologne into your mouth as a breath freshner is something we can afford to learn on our own, (Oh come on! Don’t try to act like you’ve never tried it as a kid) but something along the lines of “disobedience to God’s word will bring physical and spiritual death” uhh…. yah! I think I’ll just take someone else’s word for it. Don’t wanna learn that the hard way.
August 10th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
no, you’re right… but i didnt just read some bad parts of the bible, and walk away… i served a two year mission preaching from that book because i honestly believed in it. (i wasnt getting paid to preach it either, my parents had to pay for the whole thing) ..LDS mission.
and i know why god chose to kill people - but to say that he destroyed every nation because they were sacrificing their children is a little… far-fetched i’d say. the jewish god wasnt the only god on the earth at the time - people had tons of different beliefs and different gods… and not all of them were wicked… as far as them not killing nations they were told to destroy, and then reaping the consequences… are you saying that if we dont obey gods commandements we no longer have our agency or right to choose? the people who chose not to destroy them, could have easily chosen not to adapt to their way of thought either… i mean, i accept gays… does that mean one day im going to be gay… not at all.. they could have easily regarded the other nations differences as wrong, or immoral without killing them, and without adopting their culture, or religious belief. either way your god has done more heinous things than say, “the joker”, and… he was the bad guy in that story…
- Wayne -
i was a christian until about a year ago. After seeing all the mistakes the bible is full of. i started to struggle with my belief in god, and jesus.
with god it comes down to a simple question really…
you either believe and are 100% in… or you dont.
and for me to be 100% in, i cant doubt…
do i believe 100% that the bible is an accurate history of the jews…. no
do i believe that god created this world out of nothing (or in the lds belief, out of already existing material) … no… science is pretty clear on evolution…
when i look outside and see a mountain do i see gods design behind it… not at all… i see many different materials that collided years ago, and the chaos that surrounds it…
i dont look at the world and see design like i once did… i see pure chaos. i see living organisms struggling to survive in whatever conditions, favorable, or harsh. … with enough matter, energy, and time, and you make them all crash into each other in chaos… what do you get? … life.
you might think its too complex, the world and the galaxy is too complex for it not to have a designer…
but if you really look at any complex thing… you’ll realize that even the most complex things are just many thousands of small things…. and the smallest of things dont require a designer… they require conditions…
so to answer your question - i am an atheist… now that doesnt mean im not open to the idea that there could be a god… because in a way we’re all agnostic - ya cant prove or disprove god…
im more inclinded to eastern thoughts and religion - yin and yang is about the coolest theory i have ever heard.
But either way - even if there is a god… i highly doubt its the christian god…
August 11th, 2008 at 10:12 am
Gestotamoseke,
Thanks for your response. I’m not gonna even begin to go into the warehouse of thought from Aquinas and what follows, the argument from design, yadda yadda, ad naseum. You seem well read in the field and probably already know what I would say.
I would only, as means of food for thought, ask you to consider the un-human nature of the Bible. Not inhumane, but un-human. If you were going to perpetuate and build upon a 5 or 6 thousand year old myth wouldn’t you clean it up a bit? If I was gonna tell my story, I would admittedly leave out as many bad things as I could. That’s the human factor common to us. But we don’t get the edited version of the Bible. We see everything. The innocent dead, the rape, the sodomy, the incest, the murder. Just read the genealogy of Christ and there are at least five glaring reminders that the road from king to KING was anything but picturesque. The Bible is no human book. It has passed through hundreds or sets of human hands to the final forms we find it today. But by its nature, it is not human. And the discrepancies? Im not trying to peruade, convert, convince, or otherwise, I’m merely saying that in the Bible incongruities, there again, at least for me, are traces of the divine. 66 books covering thousands of years passing through human hand after human hand and ultimately telling the same story: mankind gets to yet again walk with GOD in the cool of the day. You may think that’s drastically oversimplified, but i find that to be the glue that hold through apparent discrepancies from Genesis to Revelation. Man’s reconcialtion to GOD. The road is not picturesque, and if I were gonna tell the story, I would clean it up a bit. A little less carnage, a little less sex, a little less bloodshed…you know, a movie Jesus might go see.
Luv to all,
BW
August 11th, 2008 at 1:34 pm
Good day Gestotamoseke. I must honestly say that I do look forward to your responses. Let me respond by first adding that God didn’t destroy other nations solely because of child sacrifice, there were other crazy things going on there ie. murder, sodomy, idolatry, gang raping (these guys were so brazen that when angels came to visit Lot’s house, the men of Sodom wanted Lot to send them out so they could have sex with them!) Imagine being raped, (gang raped at that) by MEN in a city because you are the new guy in town! And the list goes on. These ppl were living without laws or rules, just doing their own thing and God wasn’t having that.
God, being the true God (all wise and having knowledge of the future) knew that even though His ppl had the choice between following His precepts and following those of the pagan nations, that ultimately they would end up adopting their rituals and would have to end up punishing them for it. As a good God and a Father, He was only trying to protect them by warning them. Because He is not gonna withhold justice just because He loves you. God wanted His ppl to stand out, and be the light to the world, and He didn’t want anything or any nation rather, to jepoardize that. But He also knew how easily influenced they were so He was trying to prevent that. However, one of our greatest blessing/curse; free will and curiousity allowed them to take the wrong route as it still does today.
And on the note of other gods. Do you wanna know why idolatry was such a big deal to God? Have you ever had someone imitate you? I mean to the extent of implying that they are the real “you” and that you don’t exist? I am a musician. An emcee if you will. And it drives me up the wall when I do something original and then someone else comes and tries to do what I did. And if I, a mere human being become upset at something like this, do you not see the reason why God would take an offense to it. Also, God loves us all. And what He wants from us is a relationship. However, when He sees us building that relationship with something else (at that time stone, wood, etc) of course He’s gonna be insulted at us accrediting His goodness, mercy and greatness to something that cannot respond to us. Something that we ourselves have made. Also, because of His strong love towards us, He is jealous when we give our Creator-creation love to something else. I mean, have you ever had a crush on a girl who ignores you? It’s even worse if you see her falling for someone else. It gets crazier if you know for a fact that the guy she is falling for can’t do anything to help her or is planning to hurt her. Of course this would drive you nuts! But do you know where you got these feelings? From God! That’s what it means by “created in His image” It means being happy, disappointed, jealous, anger, all these emotions are things we